thinking about shameless promotion

20 thoughts on “thinking about shameless promotion”

1. i have no money so i can’t afford the book but i did enjoy looking at the image that portrayed the gradient from traditional education to integrated education. helped me understand the idea a bit more.

   your last s entence on this post remind me of

   “SHERLOCK HO LMES IN THE TWENTY-SECOND CENTURY!
   SHERLOCK HOLMES IN THE TWENTY-SECOND CENTURY!”

   yeaaaaah

2. I don’t recommend the Circle School. You wouldn’t believe how many illiterate 8 yr olds are currently enrolled.

3. That’s an interesting assertion. I’d wager the number’s comparable to other schools, but that’s really just a wild guess/gut feeling.

   You wouldn’t believe how many happy, healthy, wonderful, amazing 8 year olds are currently enrolled.

4. Just from personal experience,
   I have a friend, his 8 yr old son goes there. He does absoulutly nothing all day but climb trees. He had to take his son to a learning center and pay extra money to teach him how to read. His son pleaded with the school to learn how to read, and they disregared those pleas. His father also did the same. One of his son’s friends also cannot read. He couldn’t even read his own birthday card. I think the Circle School needs to think long and hard what they are doing to young children. I do not deny this is a school for middle school-high school children to prosper, but elementary children need the foundation of reading, writing, and math to make it to the next level of education. If you don’t have that, then how are they supposed to catch up? I only say this for the sake of the children.

   My gut feeling is that elementary school students need a certain amount of structure and balance through this period of time. Their minds are like sponges and need all the push and drive to be educated. My “gut” feeling is that if you ask an 8 yr old if they would rather play or read, what do you think they would do?
   I am not writing this to be rude or judge you, but again, this is personal experience, and I feel that you should see the other side of this experiement on children.

   ps.I also had a friend that was in her pre-teens and quit school. The circle school did no action to follow up on this child. I hope more children do not fall through the cracks.

5. I don’t mean to be rude either, but it sounds like you have some third- or fourth-hand partial information about the school.

   It is entirely possible that your friend’s son does very little but climb trees. It’s unlikely, though, that he “pleaded with the school to learn how to read” and was ignored. In my 20+ years of first-hand experience with the school, I don’t think I have ever seen a child who wanted to learn to read fail to do so. It’s important to note, though, that learning to read, just like all activities at the school, must be driven by the student. There are staff (and older students) available as excellent resources, but if the child wants help, he does have to ask for it, and he does have to show up for scheduled classes and meetings (of course reminders are usually available). If a child asks for help learning to read but then, when the time arrives, decides that he would rather be climbing a tree, that is his decision.

   If your friend is uncomfortable with his son’s situation, I would encourage you to encourage him to talk to staff members at the school.

   I agree that there are basics that are essential for every person to know. I also think it’s hard to prevent people from learning them — maybe the best way is to try to force it, which can lead to resistance.

   Regarding the pre-teen you know — I don’t know the situation, but I’m not sure what action you would have wanted the school to take. School attendance is compulsory for children under 16 in Pennsylvania, but if a child chooses not to be enrolled at The Circle School, there is little (nothing) any non-public school can do about that.

   I understand and sympathize with your concern for children. However, I know many people who had all or nearly all of their pre-college education at The Circle School, and they have grown up to be some of the most delightful, thoughtful, intelligent, and healthy people I know. This is no experiment, but the next step in education.

6. I was unable to learn to become a ninja at the circle school.

7. I am not trying to create a online battle about the Circle School. I know that it is an unconventional school. Although, tell me in your honest 20 year experience, how many 6-8 year olds are that mature to ask for the basics of reading, writing, and math?
   This isn’t third or fourth hand partial information. I know the parent and child very well. It’s just appalling to see a child you know well barely reading a book in the 4-6 year level and that child is 6. I think the staff should see that struggle instead of ignoring the fact because they want the child to do it “on their own.” I know this child was just to afraid to talk with the staff about the situation. The parent did discuss this in a meeting and was told that he would focus more on the reading. Nothing changed much, so the parent changed that and took the child to private tutoring. This child has learned more in a few months than almost 2 years at the Circle School.
   None of what I am writing has anything with the Circle School personally. I honestly don’t care if a child “Wants” to read, at a certain point it is a requirement of LIFE. It has to do with Education first and foremost. If there are children that aren’t getting the education the deserve, then it affects THAT child and the rest of THEIR life.
   All I am really saying is that I care about the mind and education of this child (and others) and to see it jeopardized makes me very sad.

8. I know many 6-8 year olds who have either asked for help in learning the basics, or have just picked them up on their own.

   I think that you and I (whoever you are) have an honest disagreement that goes deeper than The Circle School’s program, but gets instead at developmental and philosophical issues. Reading is a requirement of life, but I don’t believe it’s a requirement in every 8 year old’s life — at the point that it becomes a requirement for the individual, they are going to learn.

   I don’t believe that learning to read, or add, should be the primary obejective of an 8 year old’s life. Learning how to live, with dignity, awareness, and compassion, are, in my mind, far more important.

9. This is my last comment. I am leaving it on this note…
   You say that “learning to live with dignity, awareness, and compassion are far more important.” Can you honestly tell me that without basic reading skills that child will even know what those words mean? They won’t even be able to read those words. So you are condoning the life of ignorance is bliss? How can a child be aware of life without being eventually able to pick up and read a paper, see the news, read a beautiful poem, get in a heated discussion on religion, fight the good fight, without what you believe is not important, The Written Word. It’s a shame that you let your self rightous belief deter on the beauty of the human language. I am writing this for constructive critism, not any personal battle or selfless idea. I live everyday with dignity, compassion, and awareness. I didn’t learn that from school, I learned that from my parent AND myself. Schools need to teach children the other side of the coin. Isn’t that why the school and teachers get paid to do? Educate children so they can eventually independently think and forge on with their life as adults.
   I hope you looked at this and really, really looked at it. Do no take it as a personal attack or hateful message. I come in peace and only as a concerned person.
   I learned to read at 3 1/2 and that isn’t normal for a child in the United States, but it is unusual for an 8 year, nonetheless 2 8 year olds to not be able to read. At least forward this to someone that can make a difference in these childrens lives. Have compassion for these children and their future.
   Thanks for listening, and I hope you take this to heart and not take any of this in the wrong way. It is meant to heal not hurt.

10. I do believe that reading is a vital skill. I also learned to read at a very young age, and poetry — the written word — is one of the great loves of my life. I am not discounting the importance of reading.

    Those kids will learn to read. One day they will hear their friends talking about a comic book or an online role playing game that requires reading and they will want to experience it, too. Chances are that within a few months they’ll be on par with their age group, and they’ll be reading all the time.

    I know that it’s hard to imagine — it’s a truth that traditional schools haven’t acknowledged — but it happens all the time. It’s beautiful.

11. Oh my, how my heart is beating after reading these posts…I am the mother (and holder of a certificate to teach, though nothing I “learned” to get that certificate taught me anything about how people actually learn) of an 8 1/2 yr old who is now in her 4th year at The Circle School. Most people familiar with traditional education- which is most people-would judge that she “can’t read”. This was actually one of my biggest concerns when I enrolled her as a 5 yr old who was depressed and withdrawn after 8 wks of constant pressure and evaluation in 1/2 day kindergarten…but that was proof enough to me that pressure, evaluation, and constant “testing” was NOT the way my child learns. Like she said back then, “Mom, why does the Teacher asks us questions when she already knows the answer?” She just didn’t get the whole constant evaluation thing, and I realized that I didn’t want her to get it!
    The basic premise that children must be coerced, tricked, “rewarded” with external grades, prizes, etc. to learn is nuts! Look at a baby who learns to talk and walk without all that…that is how kids remain if they aren’t placed into institutionalized schooling. It really is!
    Whose rule is it that children must learn to read by the time they’re 6, or 8, or 10? That’s only an assumption based on the last 100 yrs or so of the schooling style in this country. I have no doubt that my child will learn how to read, much in the same way she learned how to tie her shoe. In kindergarten, she would have had to learn before Thanksgiving break, or she would have had to practice at every recess until she did it. Know what that did for her? Created anxiety and misery, it didn’t “make” her learn- in fact, it made her dead set against learning-human nature resists coercion- it’s true for adults, why do we think it’s so different for children? A few months ago, at 8 yrs old, she asked me to show her how to tie her shoe- so I did. After showing her one time- ONE TIME- she did it. So she can tie her shoes now- at 8, of her own free will, instead of at 5, after weeks of practice, pressure, and failure. Which is the better “method”? There’s no question in my mind, as a mom who loves this kid more than life itself.
    Given some contrived state-certified reading evaluation, the result would most certainly be that she cannot read. But do you know what I see? I see a kid who is still developing the parts of her brain that looks at the pictures, colors, and cues around the words to make meaning…I’m often amazed at how much she can determine from looking at a picture, or a sign, without actually knowing what the words mean. Things I don’t even pay attention to, because I just read the words. How much I am missing because I know how to read the words…if the person who posted their concerns about TCS was truly interested in looking at learning and life from a new paradigm, there is tons of material out there on the web, from the TCS website, and Sudbury Valley’s website, to John Holt books you can get in the library. I know my daughter will learn to read on her OWN tinmetable, not the Dept of Ed’s, or a teacher’s, or mine. And I no longer doubt that she knows best when it comes to her learning. She will learn to read when she’s ready, and when she asks for help (not cuz I told her to, but cuz she wants it) from the staff at TCS (assuming she doesn’t just pick it up on her own, which is more likely) I have no doubt they will assist her in any way she asks. But they will not go chasing after her to remind her how much she wants to learn to read-that’s called coercion, and coercion just doesn’t work when it comes to learning. It’s that whole internal vs external motivation thing- what most of us conditioned from 12+ more years of traditional schooling don’t even get, we’re all so conditioned to do in our lives what others expect of us, want of us, what we think we should do, what will get us an “A” on the test, that we’ve lost what the hell it is we actually like to do- what we would do for the pure joy of it if left to our own devices…that’s just what I never want my daughter to forget, and THAT is what The Circle School allows her to keep.
    Beyond all that, The staff at TCS are some of the best and smartest folks I’ve ever met in my whole life, and the environment of respect, freedom, and self-RESPONSIBILITY that pervades the whole place is something I have never experienced anywhere before. It truly is an awesome community, and I just wish folks would look at the deeper underpinnings, philosophy, and reality of it so they could make educated judgments. Jim’s most excellent book “About The Circle School” is a great place to start. How’s that for shameless promotion? 🙂 With love

12. I have a great deal of interest in the future of education, but I’m somewhat reluctant to enter this string because of the obviously heated views on both sides. Also, not having spent any time within TCS — I completed K-12 in the public school system — I don’t consider myself an expert on it.

    Is TCS the wave of the future of education? Personally, I’m not yet convinced TCS is a good fit for every child nor convinced that all children should begin their education at the school. I definitely think some children would benefit from TCS. I think I probably would have. However, I think other children require a more structured learning environment. Also, although I have little doubt, based on the handful of people I’ve met who are affiliated with TCS, that the school does allow students to become better people, I have concerns about how TCS students are going to fare when they reach college age and have to go out and compete with students from public and more traditional private schools.

    All that said, I’m glad TCS is at least trying different methods of education than the ones used in the traditional system. It’s not like the traditional system has an unimpeachable track record that we all need to exalt. Also, no one is forcing anyone to enroll their children in TCS. Parents should and do have that choice.

13. Concerns about TCS students’ academic performance are understandable given traditional ideas about how children learn. I think, though, that a look at what actually happens will assuage those concerns.

    I also hear this “structure” thing quite often, but I tend to think that other than kids who have serious impulse control problems (I mean above and beyond the normal 8 year old boy impulse control problems), it’s just not true. There is structure at The Circle School, and it resembles the structure that exists in the real world. “Structure” doesn’t have to be dictatorial.

    I want to add that my original post didn’t say, “If you’re interested in the future of education you should immediately adopt this philosophy and tell everyone you know to enroll their kid at The Circle School.” It said that you should read the book.

    I’m happy to talk about the school, but there’s a lot of information already out there designed to answer the many of the commonly asked questions. I would really encourage people to check it out.

    The website is a great place to start.

14. I have two children in a school very similar to The Circle School in Wheat Ridge Colorado. Both are amazing individuals with internal drive that leads them to creating their own world at the tender ages of 8 and 12. Both have been at Alpine Valley School since they were 4 years of age. Both read. More importantly, both have a real sense that life is to be lived and enjoyed. They have not been exposed to the capriciousness of others telling them what and when to learn. What will they be when they grow up? I have no idea but I know that they will have a solid understanding of how the world works and how to learn what they need to know when they need to know it. This has been borne out in the graduates from this and other schools. The ones who start young are the best prepared for life as adults. The chldren who come to schools like this when they are beyond 12 years old have a much harder time because of the earlier conditioning that they were exposed to.

    I think that it is peculiar to hear a libertarian (dc libertarian) claim that certain people need structure. As a libertarian myself, one who has spoken numerous times at the Colorado Libertarian convention, I am astounded at the ease with which libertarians in particluar will talk about liberty and the pursuit of happiness when it comes to adults, but turn around and deny it to people of less than 18 years.

    They often use the same arguments used to enslave black Americans during the years prior to the Civil War and oppress women until early in the last century. Read some of the proslavery tracts some time (George Fitzhugh comes to mind) and you will laugh (perhaps cry) at how similar the arguments are that now are used to deny children their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    Funny how emotional one gets about education. I certainly don’t mean to offend – but I suspect I did. I do feel very strongly about this topic. I wonder if folks get worked up over the topic of education because we have grown up in a world dominated by the belief and practice of “one size fits all” in the world of schooling. Most of us certainly don’t get worked up over our friend’s choice of religion or diet – both of which arguably are as important as schooling.

15. I’m not offended. That’s pretty difficult to do. Still, I think comparing the public education system to slavery is a bit ridiculous. I know that’s not what you wrote exactly, but it’s basically what’s implied.

    Granted, I’m not a traditional Libertarian. I don’t believe the U.S. can survive without a government (we’re too big, among other issues), and I’m not planning on moving into a commune in the Montana woods anytime soon. Also, I don’t believe Libertarianism is the direction we ultimately need to go. It’s just the best one available at moment. That said, I am a strong believer in freedom and non-interference in the pursuit of happiness. I’m not ready, though, to say that a six-year-old has the necessary knowledge and life experience to take this journey on his or her own.

    I’m happy that your children are doing well in school. However, I can’t help but think that isn’t due in large part to the guidance they have received, and continue to receive, at home. Some children aren’t fortunate enough to have such guidance and, in my opinion, might not be prepared to self-direct their own education.

16. I don’t think he was comparing the traditional educational system to slavery — I think he was comparing the arguments used to deny rights to children to the arguments once used to deny rights to blacks. I assume these are things along the lines of, “They aren’t capable of making good decisions for themselves.”

    While I agree that DC Libertarian is probably not a “traditional” Libertarian, I do wonder if his understanding of Libertarianism is any greater than his understanding of schools like Alpine Valley and The Circle School. No Libertarian I’ve ever talked to has advocated anything close to the elimination of government. Additionally, the desire to move to a commune in Montana is certainly not a requisite to hold the belief that “respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world…and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized” (LP.org).

    Similarly, The Circle School (and Alpine Valley, I assume, though I don’t have much firsthand experience with that school) is not setting children loose in the world, but is providing a safe and nurturing environment with abundant resources to support children as they grow towards becoming fully independent adults.

17. I was kidding about the commune in Montana (although there are Libertarians who believe in sort of thing), and one of the goals of all of the Libertarians I know is the reduction of the scope of government. I’m not against the former, and I definitely support the latter to a degree.

    As for the rest, all I know is that I was a child once, and I couldn’t tell you what I wanted to do for the rest of my life back then. I think children require exposure to a lot of different things to help them determine what their interests are, and what they are not, as well as to ensure that if they decide later to change directions they are not years behind in their studies. I read a few articles about Alpine Valley yesterday afternoon and came across an example of a student — about the age of high school freshman, according to the article — who had not studied math. I’m not saying that this is a typical student, but that seemed a little odd to me. Then I remembered I was studying advanced algebra when I was that age.

    Did I particularly like algebra? No, it wouldn’t have been my first choice of activities. Do I use it now in my everyday life? No. In fact, I really haven’t used algebra since college. But in retrospect am I glad that I studied it? Absolutely. The same goes for advanced chemistry and biology and French, etc. My point is that, when I left high school, I felt prepared to move into any major I chose in college and meet any academic challenges I might face. And in college, I decided to major in political science. But even there, I had to take a number of distribution requirements. I’m glad that I did, because otherwise I never would have taken a class in religion, which became my second major.

    I’m not against TCS or Alpine Valley. As I wrote earlier, I’m happy that they are out there, trying different things in education, because I do agree that children should have more options in their curriculum. I also believe that parents should have the choice to send their children to such schools.

    I think my concerns about such school arise because of a difference of philosophy more than anything else. Based on my personal experience, having been a child once, children are not adults, and sometimes they do not know what they want or what is best for them or even what they don’t want now but might want later. If you really believe that children are the same as adults, then you also have to believe that children shouldn’t have to attend school at all. And maybe that is what you believe. I’m not sure. But personally I think we do children a disservice by not giving them the tools they might need for the future. Some children are bright enough and motivated enough to seek them out on their own. I’m more worried about the children who aren’t.

    I raise these concerns only because I believe education really is the only thing that can move society forward. It’s that critical.

18. i’m glad there’s something in-between homeschooling and public school. i like the idea of homeschooling but i’d never want to isolate kids like that. i dunno.

    if i ever have kids i’ll gather their friends and teach them how to build a rocket ship to the moon and we’ll learn computer programming by scratching out files to execute on the surface of the moon.

    as for public education, i was raised in it.. it had its ups and downs.

19. I think the approach to education in the future HAS to be multifaceted. As the posts here have shown, people are very passionate about education. However, I think that most of the people who have say in education are products of the reigning system: the monopoly of public, state-run education. History has shown us time and time again what happens when monopolies are in control:

    1. decline of innovation-why innovate when you don’t have to? because if you don’t our children will be left far behind the rest of the world. its not about competition. its about having the ability to give our children the most applicable education possible. (applicable because i wasted a lot of time in school doing absolutely nothing while still graduating with honors – i had 3 study halls a week in my senior year alone.)

    2. no reason to improve-why improve when the next school over is doing the same thing? why work harder when you can do the bare minimum and get the same pay? new york city schools currently house their problem teachers in rooms they call “rubber rooms”. a recent article i read stated that these teachers don’t teach. they are administrative overhead and are so hard to fire that the schools just keep them away from the children and pay their salary (a figure in the tens of millions).

    3. throw money at it-that obviously doesnt work. since 1970, education spending has DOUBLED. are the children doing twice as well? no, they are doing the same, or worse than in 1970.

    4. well, its the teachers, the school district, the state-wrong. the problem resides at all levels, starting with parents. parents as a whole are horrible today. ive seen it first hand. not all parents are bad, but if i ever have children, i swear that i am selling my television. also, i personally think that the lack of choice and personal freedom children have in their own education is a terrible mistake. personal responsibility is paramount and we aren’t teaching it.

    I think that we should have high school-level schools that focus on different interests: technologies, sciences, arts, etc. etc. If you’re interested in computers in 9th grade… why not try a year at a computer focused school? Or if you’re a gifted writer… why not a writing intensive environment? I disagree with the assertion that we should have to learn all these “subjects” concurrently. I don’t think my 10th grade history class was worth it. I cannot recall a single piece of information that I attribute as coming from that class.

    I think public schooling, private schooling, charter schools, specialized schools, even apprentice programs (learning while you work) should be reevaluated in terms of breaking up the current structure. At least-being studying ways that students might want to be involved more. Don’t compel them to be involved, find out what might make them WANT to be involved. At best-keep the current system into place and create more choices. Create new schools, encourage specialty schools, encourage charter schools. While this may drain some fund from public schools, it will also take their student-teacher ratio down, providing more opportunity for the students who choose to say in the public schools. Something has to change.

20. Yes! I so agree with everything Ben just said.